Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, and welcome back into know the news. This is Becca Martin Brown, the arts and entertainment editor for the Northwest Arkansas Democrat Gazette. I cannot remember in my career when I've been more honored to have this guest on our podcast. His name is Chuck Hoskin Junior, and he is the principal chief of the Cherokee Nation.
Thank you for joining us, sir.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Well, I'm glad to join you, Becca. Thank you for having me on.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: I kind of fell into a story that turned out to be more than I thought it would be about the Friedman exhibit at the US Marshals Museum in Fort Smith and eventually ended up on your doorstep.
How did you first become aware of the freedman issue and explain to our listeners what that is?
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Well, the issue of Cherokee freedmen is such a powerful and important issue for me. I learned about it when I was a teenager when my father was serving on the council of the Cherokee nation. That's our legislative branch. And that issue was something that was very much on the minds of a lot of cherokee leaders and cherokee citizens at the time. Course, historic context is really important. So let's go back to the 19th century. During the 19th century, the Cherokee nation is situated geographically in what became the southeastern part of the United States. Of course, we were there governing ourselves just fine before anyone ever heard of the United States. But we're there, and through different treaties and a fair number of land sessions, we continue to have a foothold in the southeastern part of the United States.
What was going on in the southeastern part of the United States in the 19th century was legalized slavery under the laws of the United States and the various states, but also the laws of the Cherokee nation. And so we had an economy that was in part built on the backs of black slave labor. And that's just the truth. The slaves would remove with us to our present day home along what many people understand to be the trail of tears. That's the forced removal of the Cherokee people over the period of 1838 to 1839 on the heels of a lot of resistance by the Cherokee Nation to that federal indian policy.
We would continue to have chattel slavery in the Cherokee Nation until we emancipated slaves around the time the rest of the country at least went down that path through the emancipation Proclamation. We did that in 1863 and in 1866. This is really important for the story of Friedman today. We signed a treaty with the United States, the last treaty. We have a really precious treaty because it binds all the previous promises together, and it's what we carry forward today as the really whole of our treaty promises and obligations with the United States. But within that treaty were a couple of things we said we would never do again. Enslave other human beings and give full citizenship to those freed slaves and their descendants. Which brings us up to the present time. The treaty says all the rights of native Cherokees. And that sentence, which is a very simple sentence, would be the subject of political discourse and debate and also litigation up until 2017, when it was clear that what that sentence meant was freedmen have all the rights of citizenship. And here we are today, where equality is the order of the day. At the Cherokee Nation. All 460 plus thousand citizens, including about 15,000 Cherokee citizens of freedmen descent, are on equal footing. And that's good. But what's even better, I think, is what we're doing at the Fort Smith Marshall Museum, the US Marshall Museum, where our exhibit, in which we examine without holding back, what that history is, and we're really confronting it in ways we never have before.
[00:04:06] Speaker A: This is the first time that this exhibit has traveled outside the Cherokee Nation, correct?
[00:04:12] Speaker B: That's correct.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: But it won't be the last.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: Hopefully, it won't be the last. I think it's really a story that the country needs to hear. We had it initially at our own museum in our capital city of Tahlequah, and then it went to Tulsa, also within the Cherokee Nation, and had a great reception there. Now we're moving beyond our borders, which is good. I mean, I think the whole country needs to see this. I hope it eventually makes its way to places like the National Museum of the American Indian in Washington, DC. And really, anywhere in the country, people are interested in learning about that really important and dark period of american history involving slavery, but also examining something that I think many Americans are unaware of, which is that the Cherokee nation, not only the Cherokee Nation, but the Cherokee nation, was among the tribes that engaged in chattel slavery of black people. And then the long history to not only equality, but examining that history and celebrating what it means to be a Cherokee citizen who happens to be a freedman descent in the 21st century.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: And that kind of went back and forth. They had citizenship, then they didn't have citizenship, and then they did.
[00:05:20] Speaker B: That's true. And one of the things a person can learn in that exhibit is, in the wake of the treaty of 1866, the Cherokee nation again is governing itself. We're a democracy now, and we were a democracy then with a government based on our own constitution and the rule of law. That means we had elected and appointed officials and Cherokee freedmen, served in government offices. Including elected offices. They were part of the civil society of the Cherokee Nation in the wake of their freedom. After the sunset nearly on the Cherokee Nation in 1907, the imposition of the state of Oklahoma, there was a period of dormancy, if you will, in terms of the Cherokee Nation's government. We continue to exist, but we existed really in a suppressed way because of federal indian policy. It wouldn't be till the 1970s that we re examined our constitution, reinstituted our democracy, elected our officials again. At that time, the freedmen debate arises again, and the issue of whether freedmen were citizen was of much dispute. And the Cherokee Nation's position was they weren't citizens. There was litigation. In 2007, the Cherokee people actually voted to exclude Cherokee Friedman in a ballot initiative. That was a special election, and it was one of those, I think, dark moments in cherokee history where a minority of our citizens had to put the question of their civil rights on the ballot, which is really at odds with what I think is the mainstream understanding what civil rights are.
That was thankfully reversed in 2017 by the Cherokee Nation Supreme Court and a federal judge. Significantly, the Cherokee Nation could have resisted that even further by asserting sovereign immunity, for example, a legal term that protects governments from legal, incurring legal obligations in some respects. We said, whatever the federal judge says that sentence means, they should do. That was before I was chief, but I was in the cherokee government at the time. So that put us on a path to another sort of back and forth. But since 2017, there's been equality in the Cherokee Nation. What I've tried to do in my administration with our deputy chief is not only adhere to the letter of that law, but be honest about what happened. Confront that we enslaved other human beings, talk about the consequences of that, and then celebrate the Friedman experience by asking the Friedman what they think. And I think it's been successful.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: And was it in 2020 that the Cherokee Friedman Art and History Project started?
[00:08:06] Speaker B: That's right. So a couple of things happened in 2020 relating to the Friedman. I issued an executive order on equality to make sure that we all, at least in the executive branch, understood that we have to take some affirmative steps to include a population that had been excluded and denied their basic rights for generations. We couldn't expect that to be consequence free. We have to lean in and embrace those citizens and help them become part of civil society again in the Cherokee Nation. But the other thing we did related to that was launch this art and history exploration, this committee. So cherokee citizens of freedmen descent sat on this committee, and they invited cherokee citizens of freedmen descent to send in stories and ideas and express their aspirations and their sorrows and their understanding of the freedmen experience in art. And I think that's one of the reasons it's been successful, because it let the cherokee citizens of freedmen descent tell that story instead of other people telling it for them. And that's what that exhibit is at Fort Smith.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: And there is a tie to the Marshals Museum because there was a freedman who was a us marshal. Right?
[00:09:18] Speaker B: That's true. There was a freedman who was a us marshal. And then the entirety of the marshals presence on what was then really part of the frontier of the United States from the United States perspective, figures in so significantly with cherokee history. So the whole of the Marshall museum is really important to the Cherokee Nation. This particular story, dark as it is and difficult as it is to talk about, also figures in, embodied in that freedman who was a marshal. So I think there's lots of things to explore. If persons going to the museum thinking they're going to learn about the us marshals, I think they'll be delighted and surprised and in some ways sort of sorrowful that that was a chapter that happened in our history.
[00:10:03] Speaker A: What do you hope that the people of the cherokee nation take away from this exhibit? And what do you hope that the rest of us who don't have indigenous roots take away from it?
[00:10:17] Speaker B: I think for the cherokee people, what my hopes are is that they confront the truth, which is that we enslaved other human beings under our laws. We enslaved black people. We built an economy and elements of our society based on slavery. We have to say that. We have to say that it was wrong. And we also have to say that once we emancipated slaves and signed a treaty, which we always say a treaty is the supreme law of the land, and we ought to honor our ancestors, that we proceeded to dishonor our ancestors and disregard a treaty provision that was simply inconvenient for what politically, perhaps, the cherokee people wanted. Confronting that and being honest about it is okay. It doesn't make us weaker as a nation. And then I want Cherokees to maybe think about the fact that since 2017, we've just gotten stronger. There's been nothing weak about the cherokee nation here as we close out the first quarter of the 21st century. And I think it's not just in spite of Friedman's citizenship. It's in part because of that. I think we're larger in numbers. We've taken this albatross off our necks, if you will, in a real way, got a long ways to go in terms of healing, but I think confronting the truth is healthy for any society. Similarly for the rest of the country. I want them, number one, to know more about cherokee history.
That in and of itself is a reason for people to go and for me to want them to go to this exhibit. But the other reason is this. There's a really troubling thing going on in the country, different parts of the country, which is a great deal of whitewashing of history or shielding, say, public school students from history that might make them feel bad. I thought history sometimes should make us feel bad because if we feel bad and we examine why we feel bad, we perhaps can analyze how we can do better in the future. The old saying, if you don't understand history, it's apt to repeat itself, something along those lines. So I think part of this is also a push against that really regressive and frankly, I think backward and politically motivated effort in this country to just push away stories of marginalized communities, push away stories of a larger society, oppressing or crushing minority elements within that society. That's happened in this country. We know that and we have to talk about it. I hope people see that the cherokee nation's willing to talk about it doesn't make us weak. It actually makes us stronger. And so if that can be influential in other parts of this debate about what we should talk about in terms of our american history, I hope it's viewed in a positive way and helps us make some progress.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: And I understand that the Cherokee Nation hopes for a further partnership with the Marshalls Museum. And there was a little gift toward that.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: We've given a gift of $25,000.
You know, it makes sense to partner with a museum like the US Marshalls Museum. Sometimes when something's close to your backyard, as it is ours and people who live in that part of Arkansas, you might lose sight. So sometimes I have to step back and say, this is an amazing gym in this part of the country. It's going to attract so much in terms of tourism, people that are interested in exploring the history of the us marshals. So from an economic development standpoint, it makes perfect sense. From a friendship standpoint, it makes a lot of sense too. I mean, the Marshall Museum has been wonderful to work with, so the dollars really don't do justice. The value of this partnership, this exhibit examining cherokee freedmen, I think it's just the beginning of ways we can help add to the programming. We're going to be a long term partner with the Marshall Museum. It's a real gem for the region, and we just appreciate it a great deal.
[00:13:59] Speaker A: This is your last term, so what happens?
When do you get free of all this?
[00:14:06] Speaker B: Well, I'll tell you, I love every day of this job. I really do. I will leave office and August of 2027, someone else will take this seat. But I sure have enjoyed it. It's really something to think about in the 21st century. The cherokee nation's democracy is very vibrant when the United States, for a great big portion of the last 200 years, has tried to crush it. But we're very persistent people, stubborn, if you will. And so because my ancestors stuck with it and collectively said, we've got a future, I get to live a little part of that future that they imagined right now. And to do it in a way in which I think we're making a lot of progress for our people and our friends and neighbors. Being able to partner with a great museum like the US Marshals Museum, that's one of the things that makes this job so joyful. So I'll run hard through the finish line, and that's in August of 2027. And then someone else will take this seat.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Thank you so much for taking time to speak with us again. This is Chuck Hoskin Junior. He is the principal chief of the Cherokee Nation and we are honored by your presence, sir.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:15:16] Speaker C: If you're enjoying this podcast, consider a newspaper subscription to the Northwest Arkansas Democrat Gazette or the River Valley Democrat Gazette. We have a special offer for our podcast listeners, so visit nwa online.com nwapodcast to get started. You can also click the subscribe button on our websites, nWA online.com and rivervalleydemocratgazette.com dot or call us at 479-684-5509 and be sure to say that you're a podcast listener. Now back to the show.
[00:15:47] Speaker D: And here's a preview of some of the stories we're working on over the next few days. One tool police have to solve crimes.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: Is social media, where people often incriminate.
[00:15:57] Speaker D: Themselves by posting video or photo evidence of planned or past crimes, including showing off their guns or large sums of money. Ron would talk to local law enforcement officers about this and will have a full report. The Rogers Public Library has continued offering services to the public despite the fact its building has remained closed since sustaining damage in the severe weather of May 26. Doug Thompson will have that story.
More new artwork this piece, titled singing kites, will soon be installed in a roundabout at the intersection of Water Tower Road and Southeast 8th street in Bentonville. Our Bentonville reporter, Thomas Ascente, will have the details.
Numbers from this year's annual count of people experiencing homelessness in northwest Arkansas were recently made publicly available. Fayetteville reporter Stacey Ryburn will provide us those numbers and how they compare to past years. This weekend in the River Valley section, there will be a story from Sadie Lcicero about a new exhibit at the Fort Smith Museum of History on the Dust bowl and the Great Depression, and Monica Brick will have a couple of stories on important developments from the Fort Smith City directors meeting Tuesday, including their approval of the military compatibility overlay district. In features in addition to the story about the Friedman exhibit at the US Marshals Museum, you'll also read about clowning around at the rodeo of the Ozarks, a new exhibit at the Amazium Arts Live Stinky Cheeseman, an exhibit called Transfigure at Phoenix Arts in Fayetteville and all the music news, courtesy of Monica Hooper and in profiles, meet David Ross, makeup artist to the Stars.
These stories and many others will be available to you this weekend in the northwest Arkansas Democrat Gazette and the River Valley Democrat Gazette. Know the news is a chance we.
[00:17:52] Speaker A: Take every week to point you towards.
[00:17:54] Speaker D: Some of those stories and to thank.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: You for being a subscriber until next week.
[00:17:58] Speaker D: I'm Becca Martin Brown, arts and entertainment editor, and I hope you have a wonderful weekend.
